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Steve Jobs dies Options
Muffalopadus
#1 Posted: : Thursday, October 06, 2011 6:39:43 AM
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Long live the PC!!

But seriously, I'll always remember him for who he was. A man who designed beautifully designed luxury goods for people who can't really afford them.
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Gunslinger
#2 Posted: : Thursday, October 06, 2011 1:11:23 PM
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iSad
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Rikaelus
#3 Posted: : Thursday, October 06, 2011 4:04:15 PM
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Muffalopadus wrote:
But seriously, I'll always remember him for who he was. A man who designed beautifully designed luxury goods for people who can't really afford them.


And then release almost the same thing every year with a new version number, leading to hordes of fanbois waiting in line to spend money on the new one. I despise that culture. I owned a Treo 600 for 2-3 years and it was able to take pictures, play MP3s, and play videos... long before there were "Camera Phones" and "Music Phones" and iPhones. And now it seems they're trying to market the iPad the same way.

/facepalm

We're already too much a consumer society for our own long term survivability. We don't need those bad habits preyed upon any more.

Gunslinger
#4 Posted: : Thursday, October 06, 2011 8:42:25 PM
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Super Penguin
#5 Posted: : Monday, October 10, 2011 3:23:36 PM
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Rikaelus wrote:
And then release almost the same thing every year with a new version number, leading to hordes of fanbois waiting in line to spend money on the new one. I despise that culture. I owned a Treo 600 for 2-3 years and it was able to take pictures, play MP3s, and play videos... long before there were "Camera Phones" and "Music Phones" and iPhones. And now it seems they're trying to market the iPad the same way.

/facepalm

We're already too much a consumer society for our own long term survivability. We don't need those bad habits preyed upon any more.

My thoughts exactly. Wasn't much of a fan of Steve Jobs, but he certainly left a mark on the world.

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Rikaelus
#6 Posted: : Monday, October 10, 2011 4:56:58 PM
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Super Penguin wrote:
My thoughts exactly. Wasn't much of a fan of Steve Jobs, but he certainly left a mark on the world.


He did, but I do think technology would have eventually evolved much the same way it did even without him. It was inevitable that companies would want to market computers for home use and technology would have evolved to accomplish that goal. It might have ended up differently, but nobody can say whether it would be better or worse.

IMO for about 20 years Apples actually held back technological progression because of how proprietary they were--their hardware came with their software and it took an act of God to intermingle it with much more modular PC hardware and software. I think video cards were about all you could replace in an Apple without needing expensive, proprietary items.

They've gotten a bit better about that in recent years, at least.

Muffalopadus
#7 Posted: : Tuesday, October 18, 2011 6:07:23 AM
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Rikaelus wrote:
He did, but I do think technology would have eventually evolved much the same way it did even without him.


Yeah, that's probably true about anything. WHAT IF EDISON DIDN'T INVENT THE LIGHTBULB? It just would have been invented by someone else a little bit later, I'm sure.

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IMO for about 20 years Apples actually held back technological progression because of how proprietary they were--their hardware came with their software and it took an act of God to intermingle it with much more modular PC hardware and software. I think video cards were about all you could replace in an Apple without needing expensive, proprietary items.

They've gotten a bit better about that in recent years, at least.


That was my biggest problem with Apple, while the iMac was an all-in-one computer...it really was just that. You couldn't really do anything else with it except plug it in and use it.

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HolyJaw
#8 Posted: : Thursday, November 10, 2011 11:54:40 AM
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It appears Im late to the game, but I have to say Im very disappointed in this community's lack of regard to this man's death. All I see is bitching about how you cant custom mod your Mac and the phrase "proprietary" a bunch of times.

Apple under jobs has done so much good for the PC world, its truly staggering. Millions of dollars spent to refine the manufacturing processes, the purchasing process, the user experience... I cant keep track of the monumental changes he brought to the table.

I was up in Cupertino the day he died, and I can tell you that there wasnt a single visionary in Silicon Valley, a single decision maker, that didnt recognize the enormity of our loss at his passing.
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WarMachine wrote:
meh...maybe if he hadn't been handed a burning house he could have done great things, but right now he has won the Prize for what? Damage Control?
Muffalopadus
#9 Posted: : Thursday, November 10, 2011 1:53:37 PM
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Like I said, PC fanbois.

Again as I said, he was an excellent salesman and leader who lead a team to design and sell beautiful and expensive objects. Did he bring peace to war torn countries? Did he heal the sick? How exactly did he contribute to the well-being and future of mankind? These are questions I asked myself when thinking about whether or not this was a great man.

He may have created manufacturing jobs in poor countries so that rich people (or people pretending to be wealthy) could buy his shiny rectangles with smooth edges with beautiful UI's. I thank Steve Jobs for influencing the magic that is Windows 7.

Steve Jobs was simply an American success story. He may have founded an empire, but it is based on money. He lead a team to design technology that was beautiful and easy to use...but he pales in comparison to the likes of Leonardo da Vinci or Attila or Tesla.

I'm wondering if "decision makers" that were mourning the death of this man were simply covering their own butts. Who would actually speak their mind at the funeral of the dead person? I enjoy the idea of a Speaker for the Dead. Its what I'd like at my own funeral.

Obviously I don't know everything there is to know about Jobs. I simply maintain that he was an excellent participant in "The American Dream: Make Money".
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Gunslinger
#10 Posted: : Thursday, November 10, 2011 2:28:26 PM
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Rikaelus
#11 Posted: : Thursday, November 10, 2011 3:42:02 PM
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HolyJaw wrote:
It appears Im late to the game, but I have to say Im very disappointed in this community's lack of regard to this man's death. All I see is bitching about how you cant custom mod your Mac and the phrase "proprietary" a bunch of times.


Of course. You praise him for apparently helping the PC manufacturing process, but modularity is the key to efficient manufacturing; being able to make one piece that can be used in as many ways as possible. Apple philosophy went against that. They only cared about manufacturing components for their own systems, while eventually hundreds of other manufacturers contributed to a world using established standards, allowing their components to be used with others'.

When Apple first started out, that was perfectly acceptable. There really weren't many other manufactures and no standards. But that changed by the end of the 80s and they should have got on board with it.

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Apple under jobs has done so much good for the PC world, its truly staggering. Millions of dollars spent to refine the manufacturing processes, the purchasing process, the user experience... I cant keep track of the monumental changes he brought to the table.


Millions of dollars spent made by charging customers outrageous prices. It's not like all that money came out of their pockets up front. They started with only a couple thousand dollars.

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I was up in Cupertino the day he died, and I can tell you that there wasnt a single visionary in Silicon Valley, a single decision maker, that didnt recognize the enormity of our loss at his passing.


He may have been a visionary, but give credit where it's due: it's Wozniak that made Apple work. Jobs was a salesman and marketer. He saw the potential in selling fully assembled computers for home use. He wasn't the only person in the world with that idea at the time, either. He was just lucky to have Wozniak at his side to make it a reality and it had a couple advantages over the Altair 8800.

From there it was just marketing, marketing, marketing...

Bike
#12 Posted: : Thursday, November 10, 2011 5:06:19 PM
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I'm in the process of reading his biography -- actually not much of an Apple fan, but always interesting to learn about someone's life. Especially when that person is as recognizable and idolized as much as he was.

That being said, Steve Jobs was known by his friends and family as someone who knew how to run with a vision. He didn't create computers, he created a company around computers because he saw the value in doing that. It was described many times by himself and peers that were interviewed that he didn't give credit where it was due and would constantly take ownership of people's ideas as his own.

Apparently he was an asshole of a person to work for or with -- but it was kind of ingenious. He would tell people their work was "complete shit" that they spent months on, breaking their morale and emotions until it turned into a legitimate fight or flight response. People with flight left Apple, and people with fight produced things that they invested their whole being, adrenaline, experience, and dignity into. The result was something no other company could ever touch and Jobs knew that.

I could never be like Jobs. I can respect him as a business and technology visionary and leader though.

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Rikaelus
#13 Posted: : Thursday, November 10, 2011 5:57:22 PM
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Bike wrote:
Apparently he was an asshole of a person to work for or with -- but it was kind of ingenious. He would tell people their work was "complete shit" that they spent months on, breaking their morale and emotions until it turned into a legitimate fight or flight response. People with flight left Apple, and people with fight produced things that they invested their whole being, adrenaline, experience, and dignity into. The result was something no other company could ever touch and Jobs knew that.


That could very easily backfire, though. Those who have put their whole being into something they take pride in could very easily leave if beaten down like that. I think of some of the great minds of the past and I can't imagine them sticking around in an environment like that.

Heck, even Wozniak didn't stay actively working at Apple for long, and he's on record as saying he wasn't really that good of friends with Jobs at the end. Maybe Jobs' ways of running things has something to do with that.

Anyway, he was a good capitalist. I'll give him that. Of course, I tend to see that as an insult more than a compliment.

HolyJaw
#14 Posted: : Wednesday, December 14, 2011 1:52:51 AM
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Muffalopadus wrote:
Again as I said, he was an excellent salesman and leader who lead a team to design and sell beautiful and expensive objects. Did he bring peace to war torn countries? Did he heal the sick? How exactly did he contribute to the well-being and future of mankind? These are questions I asked myself when thinking about whether or not this was a great man.


I can't believe I keep seeing people toss around the word 'expensive' as if it were some terrible disease. Yes, Apple products historically have been priced luxuriously, but recent years have seen prices drop dramatically, to the point where competitors literally cannot keep up. Look at the price of similar Android and WP7 devices. Apple may have charged exorbitant prices, but it led to manufacturing processes that continue to baffle competitors. Apple is said to hold the majority of the manufacturing sector's lasers solely for use in fabricating metal chassies.

Muffalopodus wrote:
but he pales in comparison to the likes of Leonardo da Vinci or Attila or Tesla.


Da Vinci and Tesla have been dead long enough to see their legacies passed on to a new generation, evolved and adapted. Jobs has been dead less than two months. His legacy is still in motion.

Rikaelus wrote:
He may have been a visionary, but give credit where it's due: it's Wozniak that made Apple work. Jobs was a salesman and marketer. He saw the potential in selling fully assembled computers for home use. He wasn't the only person in the world with that idea at the time, either. He was just lucky to have Wozniak at his side to make it a reality and it had a couple advantages over the Altair 8800.


In the '70's and early '80's, yes. But that Apple died and was subsumed in Jobs' 3rd act. Woz had so very little to do with the company as it is today.

Rikaelus wrote:
Heck, even Wozniak didn't stay actively working at Apple for long, and he's on record as saying he wasn't really that good of friends with Jobs at the end. Maybe Jobs' ways of running things has something to do with that.


And yet, he cried, unabashedly, on camera, mere hours after Jobs' death.



My intention was not to come here to refute your individual points and be so contentious, but I truly feel that to so callously dismiss Jobs' accomplishments and to paint him as some nefarious money-hungry power freak is akin to framing Wilde as an fanatical faggot, or Gates as a single-minded nerd with little capability for true innovation, or Disney as a day-dreaming anti-semite. Sure it's easy to see them in such light, and many were willing to publicly agree, but to do so is to show an unwillingness to judge each man by their individual accomplishments. We should not be so reductive of the life of a man simply because of largely unfounded bias.

I'm honestly saddened by the things I've read here, from this community.
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WarMachine wrote:
meh...maybe if he hadn't been handed a burning house he could have done great things, but right now he has won the Prize for what? Damage Control?
Rikaelus
#15 Posted: : Wednesday, December 14, 2011 3:22:31 AM
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HolyJaw wrote:
My intention was not to come here to refute your individual points and be so contentious, but I truly feel that to so callously dismiss Jobs' accomplishments and to paint him as some nefarious money-hungry power freak is akin to framing Wilde as an fanatical faggot, or Gates as a single-minded nerd with little capability for true innovation, or Disney as a day-dreaming anti-semite. Sure it's easy to see them in such light, and many were willing to publicly agree, but to do so is to show an unwillingness to judge each man by their individual accomplishments. We should not be so reductive of the life of a man simply because of largely unfounded bias.


I do judge by individual accomplishments.
So name what he personally accomplished as an individual, that didn't rely on an army of people behind him to make practical and possible. If you praise him and not the others who helped, you put him unjustly above them, and do everyone a disservice. Credit where it's due.

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